Maris Lauri: Hate speech or feud speech law in the works

Will we see hate speech legislation?

Hate speech or rather feud speech legislation is in the pipeline. The relevant question here is what is feud speech? It is when someone urges an attack against certain people simply because they belong to a group they cannot change. Its consequences could be battery or manslaughter. Should we really refrain from punishing people who urge crimes to be committed?

In other words, Reform and Center will return to the hate speech bill?

Yes.

Could breaking the feud speech law land a person in prison in the future?

Terms of punishment need to be reviewed. In the European context, criminal punishment is possible when feud speech results in criminal offenses and brings severe consequences. It could be between one and three years [in prison]. It is up to Estonia. I would like for people not to incite hatred against one another, while those who do need to be punished.

Could the case of lawyer Andrei Vesterinen or an aggressive public phone call to the head of the COVID-19 scientific council be filed under feud speech? Or what about the recent attack on North Estonia Medical Center (PERH) Chief of Medicine Peep Talving?

No, these are not examples of feud speech. The latter concerns calls to attack a group of people with certain characteristics. For example, we could be talking about hate speech had people been urged to attack those of a certain height.

The government needs to pass an anti-corruption strategy for the next five years. How should this activity plan differ from its predecessor?

The previous government finished the plan and it has been discussed in Riigikogu committees and groups. It is largely a joint effort. Looking at the big picture, Estonia has managed corruption quite successfully, while it is always possible to do better. People sense it when things are bad and dissatisfaction with the status quo is a driving force.

There are different types of corruption, while political corruption is the one that really stands out. What could be concrete measures or amendments here?

I would add that Estonia has climbed to 17th place in the international corruption perception index. Could the latter serve as a gauge of your efforts?

Yes, the corruption index could serve as one indicator. It is also possible other countries are making even greater efforts and overtaking us for that reason. Of course, it would be great if we could be on top or thereabouts. I believe the key lies in how people think, while legislation regularly requires amending.

Please give an example.

A bill has been sent to the Riigikogu obligating advisers to declare their economic interests. While such obligations are already in effect, many local government council members fail to declare interests. This reporting obligation is also and probably more necessary on the local government level. Declaring one’s economic interests is not difficult. We hope to pass guidelines for avoiding conflicts of interest, hopefully in March. Conflicts of interest are quick to arise in a small society.

Guidelines?

Yes, in terms of how conflicts of interest might be created and how they can be avoided. For example, stepping aside instead of making decisions then and there when a conflict of interest is created.

Delegates needing training for how not to find themselves complicit in corruption sounds a little funny.

(Laughs.) Yes, going over the material can be beneficial. The simplest approach is to think one’s economic interests through. It is always possible to consult colleagues. State agencies have employees one can consult when it comes to conflicts of interest.

We know that large local governments yield the most scandals and incidents of corruption that tread on people’s sense of justice. How to implant good practice there?

Yes, corruption cases of major local governments tend to come out in the media eventually. While similar situations can take place in smaller local governments, they often do not make the news. But the locals are still frustrated by them.

How to reach good practice? I think that everything starts at the top, on the level of political leaders, municipality elders or mayors. They must lay down rules and stick to them. Voters need to point to failures to declare interests.

I’m not a big fan of this reliance on legislation. Laws are necessary, while it should be up to people to uphold them and make sure they work.

The coalition agreement suggests you plan to boost the competency of the Political Parties Financing Surveillance Committee (ERJK). To some extent, it sounds just as hollow as the previous government’s plan of disbanding the committee. What is meant by rendering the ERJK more effective?

They need more staff, whereas it is a matter of debate how much and in what areas. There have also been various ideas concerning the committee’s function and tasks.

Some are simpler, while others are more difficult to accept. That said, we cannot have a situation where two or three parties make the rules for everyone else.

This requires a broader debate. While we will likely not be able to agree on every single aspect, we will try to find and put into effect as many common elements as we can. That is one of my goals.

Is the debate concerning giving ERJK greater powers already underway or is it about to start?

We have not gotten around to it yet. I have exchanged ideas with a few people.

The prosecution reclassified misdemeanor proceedings of former Minister of Education Mailis Reps as criminal recently. What have been the reactions in a situation where we are talking about preventing corruption?

Yes, it is a complicated situation. I hope the circumstances will be ascertained quickly. In terms of what happened, why and how. All upcoming decisions must be public and above board. I hope such incidents make people think. It is painful, while it is a learning process. It seems to me that Center agrees something like that should not happen again. It is necessary to move forward in a different way.

You believe the Center Party is being sincere?

I consider myself an atheist, but because Western culture is based on Christianity, we have two guiding principles. Penitence and forgiveness. If someone regrets their actions, I am willing to forgive them. I believe that people can grow.

Let us talk about money laundering. The previous government signed a contract with U.S. law firm Freeh Sporkin & Sullivan. Do our government, justice ministry and prosecution need outside help when it comes to investigating money laundering?

The justice ministry is not in charge of money laundering investigations. The Financial Supervision Authority and the finance ministry have relevant bureaus. While the investigation itself is handled by the Prosecutor’s Office.

Our investigative organs have close ties with corresponding instances in other countries, including USA. The former have been successful in past cases. I believe we do not need this kind of help today.

I think there is no need [for the contract].